| Author |
 Share Topic  Topic Search  Topic Options
|
QJS 
Expert Skiers
Joined: 03/Jan/2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 670
|
 Post Options
 Quote  Reply
 Topic: Freestyle limited class
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 8:42pm |
|
Just thought I'd run this idea by you, see what you think.
Pro Freestyle doesn't really exist in this country due to the huge costs now involved. This has been confirmed on a Worldwide basis by the fact there were only 5 Pro competitors at World Finals. This is 5 people from the whole world.
Am class with it's 800cc limit can still easily cost £15,000 to be at the top this is plainly prohibitive to most people. I think there is a desperate need for a limited class i.e bolt on parts, no stroker cranks etc, the same as limited race rules, with the obvious freestyle handling parts allowed, footholds etc.
I feel sure that this will encourage many more people into freestyle and I am also sure that the standards would be very high due to people relying on skill rather than brut power.
I remember the 1st Barrel Roll seen in competition in this country, it was on an engine I built-701cc with a F/P skimmed stock head, stock carbs, stock flame arresters, and a light weigh flywheel. Nowadays, people seem to think it is impossible to pull barrel rolls on anything like this.
Don't get me wrong I love the challenge of building high powered engines and the results they can give in the right hands but unless we can come up with a cheaper alternative, Freestyle competition seems doomed.
What do you think?
Chris
|
|
|
 |
Superman
Expert Skiers
Joined: 10/Jan/2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 433
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 8:48pm |
Sounds good, this idea very nearly came into place a few years ago at the JSRA, it was even voted in that this was going to happen but for reasons I wont go into it didn't happen.
I definatley think it would attract more riders to compete, its just a question of wether people still want to compete. The 'freeride' style of event seems very popular at the moment. Across the globe this seems to be the case.
|
|
Pain is only a barrier, once through that barrier you will find freedom
|
|
QJS
Expert Skiers
Joined: 03/Jan/2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 670
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 8:53pm |
|
Freeride comps here where are they?
|
|
|
|
QJS
Expert Skiers
Joined: 03/Jan/2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 670
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 8:54pm |
|
Opps, sorry Just read event not comp
|
|
|
|
QJS
Expert Skiers
Joined: 03/Jan/2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 670
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 8:55pm |
|
We're talking FNT & JSRA Competition.
|
|
|
|
grahammy
Post Whore
Joined: 20/Jan/2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2048
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:00pm |
this is a very good point chris, although that would create 3 classes - your limited, up to 800cc and stock hull and then 800cc and over (or 1000cc) and light weight hulls.
We need to be able to attract new blood at a modest entry budget.
One alternative might be to split the scoring system, similar say to some freeride comps (where 1/2 points on jumping on way out and 1/2 for surf riding back in), say 1/2 points for air tricks and 1/2 points for hood stuff. This will produce a more all-rounder winner, but is not then comparable to Worlds or even euro events.
Certainly a thread worth discussing 
|
|
Superman
Expert Skiers
Joined: 10/Jan/2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 433
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:04pm |
I think the competitions need to work harder and offer a bit more, FNT offers a great weekend, the amount of Amatuer and newcomers were up this year. JSRA numbers were down, badly. What can they offer to make it fun weekend again?, (still pondering on what they can offer at the mo)
The freeride events are offering all the fun without a competition. Thats what people seem to want. There must be a way of combining it all.
Could FNT get recognised by the IJSBA, maybe that could be a solution.
|
|
Pain is only a barrier, once through that barrier you will find freedom
|
|
QJS
Expert Skiers
Joined: 03/Jan/2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 670
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:05pm |
|
Limited class would really be an entry level comp with the winner going up to the Am classs and so on. The Pro class over here is available but no-one competes in it, therefore it doesn't exist.
Chris
|
|
|
|
gymjunkie
+10000
Joined: 27/Feb/2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12638
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:07pm |
|
If big air always outpoints EVERY OTHER trick.....Where is the incentive for young freestylers to want to learn anything other than air tricks ?. If they work hard and pull together nose stabs, and barrel rolls and back flips,and know their gonna win...Am i way off base ?
|
|
Cool box anti-raid protection
Footy anti-snore protection
Tereza Joanne official bar staff Romeo
Official fire-fighter to most meets
Crony # 1 Anyone want to join the club ?
|
|
QJS
Expert Skiers
Joined: 03/Jan/2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 670
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:11pm |
|
FNT associated with JSRA/IJSBA = Ambulance and crew on site, insurance and no beer.
There is a place for both JSRA and FNT.
|
|
|
|
The Stig
Post Whore
Joined: 19/Sep/2005
Location: Peru
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2303
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:16pm |
|
I agree with Chris/Lisa I don't think that the FNT is the right place for the level of seriousness which JSRA requires. The vast majority of riders are there for the beer 1st, title 2nd.
Edited by S2000 - 11/Oct/2006 at 9:17pm
|
|
No, I haven't been drinking.
|
|
Superman
Expert Skiers
Joined: 10/Jan/2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 433
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:17pm |
Modern big air is pretty much all horsepower, I think chris's point is that with a limit on engine spec i.e Ltd still 701, you really need to work on technique to pull off big air.
You can Barrell roll a stocker, nose stab one. With that sort of setup your not gonna be able to back flip, round the world, so you have to spend your time working on your technique to make sure the basics in your routine are spot on.
The scoring is uaually broken down into differtent sections. 1 Big air will always score higher than 1 tailstand. But in the time you do 1 big air and scored 8 points, you could have done a sub, tailstand, monkey jump and scored a total of 9 points.
I hope this makes sense, it does in my head
|
|
Pain is only a barrier, once through that barrier you will find freedom
|
|
oneheadedtwin
Moderator Group
Joined: 28/Sep/2005
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3648
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:24pm |
Originally posted by S2000
I agree with Chris/Lisa I don't think that the FNT is the right place for the level of seriousness which JSRA requires. The vast majority of riders are there for the beer 1st, title 2nd. |
When you speak to most at an FNT event everybody is having FUN and thats why they do it , and relax with a few beers on the night time , i was told the FNT was a social gathering of like minded people with a comp thrown in
|
|
Superman
Expert Skiers
Joined: 10/Jan/2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 433
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:27pm |
Originally posted by QJS
FNT associated with JSRA/IJSBA = Ambulance and crew on site, insurance and no beer.
There is a place for both JSRA and FNT. |
Totally agree. But most riders are heading towards FNT, Its a sad thing to say but maybe riders just aren't interested in competing at a higher level anymore. There isn't much incentive at the end of it. There is the personal goal of being number 1 in the world which I can only imagine is an amazing feeling, but there is little else. I don't think there is any prize money at the top (maybe entrance fee back), there is no pro lifestyle to freestyle, like surfing or skateboarding. These guys make enough money to get to the next riding spot and get some food. Its not possible to live that lifestyle when you have to ship a 130kg of ski everywhere you go, and fuel it, maintain it.
|
|
Pain is only a barrier, once through that barrier you will find freedom
|
|
QJS
Expert Skiers
Joined: 03/Jan/2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 670
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:28pm |
|
FNT is one side of the coin the JSRA the other, they are two seperate things, what I was saying is that if the FNT become the JSRA Freestyle comp then alot of rules and regs will come into place changing the whole idea of the FNT.
|
|
|
|
Superman
Expert Skiers
Joined: 10/Jan/2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 433
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:31pm |
|
i agree chris, just throwing ideas around
|
|
Pain is only a barrier, once through that barrier you will find freedom
|
|
QJS
Expert Skiers
Joined: 03/Jan/2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 670
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:32pm |
|
Maybe more riders = more event sponsors =prize money =more recognition-Who knows
|
|
|
|
sean
+3000
Joined: 18/Oct/2004
Location: Scotland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3522
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:34pm |
Got to say guy`s freestyle has now gone to a higher level now, and to compete at that level needs time and money ( I`ll say no more )
What i think we need is more training/clinics, Most guy`s get excited about freestyle and then turn up to events, see whats on display and then go home with your head down ( Thinking that they will never reach that level ) Let be honest now !
No one is going to turn up to the British unless you can do big air tricks.
If the big air stuff( or alot of other tricks for that matter) is not being taught or learnt it`s going to stop right there.
This is where the freeride thing starts, It`s for people that don`t or won`t compete to get involved in something
Edited by sean - 11/Oct/2006 at 9:47pm
|
|
Big MIK
+7500
-100
Joined: 10/Dec/2003
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7868
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:36pm |
yet again interesting topic.
sitting comfortably?
Am FNT machines are relatively stock, we did not put a class level on motors, so we did not need to strip them down in order to keep costs as low as possible. Indeed a few riders do not even know how to strip a motor, let alone build a modified one.
Pro FNT are asked to be limited to 800cc tops, but again have never been stripped, if you need a 1000 cc to beat a 760cc motor then you need to find a different sport. ( these riders are good)
The major stumbling block on the FNT is riders themselves. we meet so many in a year who want to compete but feel they
"must be able to pull a B roll" first.
Hell theres a man out there that has titles and still cannot pull one.
We tell these riders it is not all about big air, it is not all about big engines, but there are under this illusion from mags and the net, and indeed suppliers of parts that they must have the biggest and pull the baddest moves.
The other stumbling block is the simple phrase. "competition" it scares the life out of so many riders, why i do not know.
How many predominantely freestyle lakes does the FNT visit only to see local riders not attend the competition????? ( bloomin good ones too!)
We try to make the FNT as fun as possible, and it is deffinately the most relaxed form of freestyle competition i have ever attended. We try to give full access to water at all time, giving riders a weekend away, rather than a weekend competing.
Surely the closeness of all the riders shows this.
Finding venues is hard, we are small in logistics compared to JSRA, but big on water space. We like sea venues, the red tape is amazing and we are at the mercy of the weather, not many would have launched in Port Talbot last year,
SO basically Chris i do not think it is all to do with engines and pound notes, the FNT brings new blood to the sport every year, it also see's some bloomin good riders and characters leave every year. ( which is a genuine shame)
Competition as a rule is expensive in any sport, i think ours is the cheapest, if you want to freestyle chances are you already have the basic parts. We just struggle to get riders to enter, we have a few now that turn up just for the weekend and do not want to compete, should we bring out the thumb screws or just let them ride, they already have the bits on the machines, they just do not like competition, we prefer to have them around rather than force them to compete and risk them not comming again, they are good characters.
STu i like the freeriding side of things, again its red tape and finiding a beach area in summer, one that ya launch and retireve from easily, one that has secure parking, i mean how much gear do we leave in a vehicle once we ride ( i wont mention keys hey?) Can many places be found in the height of summer?
We know how to get big crowds up north, we have the contacts and know the area, but it is unfair to ask riders to travel so far so many times to the same area.
Would IJSBA recognition mean anything? Yes it would be nice, but apparently the riders would have to pay more ( race fee's etc) but if anyone can enter the worlds then ????
The FNT was set up to be a stepping stone to the British, designed to be FUN, cheap and informative.
sorry for turning it into a FNT type answer, but commenting on the British is something i cannot do cos i aint been there for a while.
|
|
Big MIK
+7500
-100
Joined: 10/Dec/2003
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7868
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:48pm |
Originally posted by QJS
Maybe more riders = more event sponsors =prize money =more recognition-Who knows |
we have riders, and as you know have sponsors for freestyle. it just does not carry recognition with media. Our sponsors give prizes, this year we even had sponsors give cash prizes.
I think Stu is right, winning freestyle does not allow a PRO lifestyle, it just does not pay at the top. ( top UK)
Nearly 30 riders competed this year on FNT, around 40 different riders turned up and rode in total..... How many is needed?
It will not pay, at leats not for the next few years, have as many classes as you like, you just have fewer in each class.
Combine JSRA with FNT, well if they come knocking.
|
|
The Stig
Post Whore
Joined: 19/Sep/2005
Location: Peru
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2303
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:53pm |
Originally posted by sean
No one is going to turn up to the British unless you can do big air tricks. |
WRONG! There's always one idiot.
I have conflicting opinions aboout going into the British;
1. Is that I'm clearly not good enough
2. Is that stuff it who cares!
If everyone thinks they're not good enough to enter then noone will enter and the competition will cease to exist. Who says you can't have a go, there aren't any parameters as far as I know. Also as it's been pointed, out one of the best riders in this country still does a predominatly technical routine.
One thing's for sure I wouldn't even have been considering the British without the stepping stone that the FNT has provided. A year ago if someone had even mentioned competing my blood would run cold!
Changing the format of the FNT would be taking away that buffer zone for future riders, and at a time when freestyle needs to be promoted, I think that would be a disaster.
|
|
No, I haven't been drinking.
|
|
hewittpj
Senior Member
Joined: 17/Sep/2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 169
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 9:54pm |
No offence to those that pull barrel rolls, but once you have got over the 'Wow' factor then repeating the same trick can get a bit dull. When I first started watching freestyle I was amazed that riders could outpoint the routine specialists by pulling the same trick over and over.
I therefore agree with the comment about rewarding the aerial tricks driving the sport in that direction.
To change the focus the marking needs to change.
PS I can't yet pull a barrel roll!!!
|
|
Big MIK
+7500
-100
Joined: 10/Dec/2003
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7868
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 10:01pm |
we do displays.......people know this.
ask what JOe public find the most amazing.......
If Gary was on i would start in Scotland.
C mon answers.
|
|
Big MIK
+7500
-100
Joined: 10/Dec/2003
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7868
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 10:02pm |
|
sorry and how much HP do they require...... re thinking, nearly everone on here has done a show, or display..... cmon guys your input plz....... topic change? no just to show what people outside the sport like.
|
|
sean
+3000
Joined: 18/Oct/2004
Location: Scotland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3522
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 10:04pm |
Sam, If your going to do it then good on ya girl.
But i think alot of ski`ers belive that there`s level that needs to be reached before they try it.
That`s why the FNT so busy, Cos most of us just think Feck it.
|
|
QJS
Expert Skiers
Joined: 03/Jan/2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 670
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 10:06pm |
|
I think some of you are missing the point. We are not saying there is anything wrong with big air or other tricks we are just talking about a class limit as far as engines are concerned. This way they do not feel intimidated by others in the same class who want to spend more money and have more powerful engines. Every form of racing has classes to enable people on what ever buget to enjoy competing if they want to.
|
|
|
|
QJS
Expert Skiers
Joined: 03/Jan/2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 670
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 10:13pm |
Mik r u on the Thunderbird I'm struggling to keep up. 
|
|
|
|
Big MIK
+7500
-100
Joined: 10/Dec/2003
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7868
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 10:13pm |
so your saying LTD is open to any rider within ltd spec... so pro and am can compete in LTD.
SO if LTD spec rules are no carbon fibre, apart from hand mouldings, within 3% of stock weight, and must be 701cc motor with stock ignition. this would introduce more riders.
this keeping costs down, and easy to scrutineer.
|
|
Big MIK
+7500
-100
Joined: 10/Dec/2003
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7868
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 10:19pm |
i wa going to bed an hour ago but stayed up for this one..... now time for sleep...... read with interest tomorrow once the phone calls start!.
G night peeps........ all input is vital.
|
|
QJS
Expert Skiers
Joined: 03/Jan/2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 670
|
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/Oct/2006 at 10:21pm |
|
Look at how it works in racing and remember nobody competes in the Pro class in this country in the British.
There are already 2 classes in place in the FNT all I'm saying is having a class engine limit in the British.
For exapmle a racer can ride Superstock and can also ride limited on skis appropriate to the engine limit of their class. I cannot see a freestyler having two boats they would have one and compete in the class which suited their pocket best.
|
|
|
|
Printable Version
Delicious
Digg
Facebook
Furl
Google
MySpace
Newsvine
reddit
StumbleUpon
Twitter
Windows Live
Yahoo Bookmarks